the Conversation

Now, we are ready to put RTR into practice.

When you pick up the phone to call your mother and tell her the truth about your experience of her, an odd but insistent undertow will attempt to pull the conversation away from your real experience and towards endlessly-debatable “conclusions.”

There is only one way to avoid this tendency, and that is

to continually talk about how you feel in the moment

.

Here is an example:



        

Mom, I want to tell you something… [deep breath] I know that this will sound strange, because I’ve never talked about it before, but it’s very important to me. For some time now – certainly months, and probably years – I have felt a kind of sinking sensation in my stomach when I see your name on the call display. I’m not saying that you’re

causing

this feeling – I am just telling you what happens for me, and what triggers it. It might be my fault entirely, and I may be misinterpreting everything about our relationship, but I wanted to be honest about how I feel.



        

Dear! I had no idea, I’m so sorry that this is happening for you – how strange! Why do you think you are feeling this way?



        

I don’t know. I do know that I haven’t been enjoying our conversations as much as I would like to – for quite some time – but I’m not sure why that is.



        

Well this is terrible! I had no idea you felt this way – why didn’t you tell me something before?



        

I didn’t tell you before because I felt frightened to tell you – again, I don’t know why, and I’m not blaming you – I’m just telling you what I felt.



        

Afraid to tell me? Good heavens – why on earth would you feel that? [laughter] Am I really such an ogre?



        

Again, I don’t know

why

I feel what I feel – I just wanted to tell you the truth.



        

Well! What do you think we should do about this?



        

I don’t really know – mostly because I don’t know why I am feeling what I am feeling. [deep breath] I can tell you this, though – I do feel sadness now, when I hear you tell me that you had no idea that I wasn’t enjoying our conversations very much.



        

Well it’s true! I had no idea you felt this way!



        

And you were enjoying our conversations?



        

Of course!



        

And you thought that I was enjoying our conversations?



        

Yes.



        

Why did you think that?



        

Well, I thought that it was just pleasant mother-daughter time. You know, where we chitchat about – I guess you could call them inconsequentialities, but – girly stuff. Nothing earthshaking, I know… But I guess I truly thought you were enjoying our chats. [sniff]



        

Mom, it sounds like you’re getting sad.



        

I am…



        

I feel a sudden sense of guilt overcoming me, because you’re feeling sad.



        

Oh, I’m not trying to make you feel guilty or anything – am I not allowed to feel sad when my daughter tells me she doesn’t enjoy our relationship?



        

I’m not trying to create any rules here – I’m just telling you the truth about my experience.



        

Well I have no idea what I’m supposed to do with your – revelation. You hide this from me for years, and pretend to enjoy our interactions, and then you just drop this bombshell on me without any warning!



        

Now I feel a certain amount of fear, because it seems to me that you’re getting angry.



        

No, I’m not

angry

, sweetie. I guess I’m just… surprised.



        

I can certainly understand that this would be surprising to you – but now I’m feeling a little angry, because it appears to me that all we’re doing is talking about

your

feelings, and managing

your

upset.



        

Well you’ve certainly made it very clear how

you

feel!



        

Now I’m feeling a little bit more angry, and I think it’s because – though I’m not saying this is right – I’ve felt unhappy about our phone calls for years, but we’re not talking about that – we’re just talking about your reactions to what I feel.



        

Oh, so we’re supposed to have this totally honest relationship now, but I’m not allowed to talk about what

I

feel?



        

Now, I’m feeling even more frightened and angry.



        

Well perhaps you could have put just a little bit more effort into figuring out what you felt before dumping it all on me!



        

Wow – oh wow, now I feel very scared, very sad, and very angry.



        

And what do you expect

me

to do about that? They’re

your

feelings, after all!



        

That’s true, of course – but every time you tell me something, I feel more and more scared, sad and angry.



        

Oh, so now you’re saying it’s all

my

fault!



        

No, I didn’t say that – I am telling you that I feel bad

after

you tell me something – I don’t know for sure that I feel bad

because

of what you say.

[pause]



        

Are you seeing a psychiatrist? Is that where all this psychobabble is coming from?



        

Now I feel confused, and disoriented – because it seems to me that you’re just kind of “jumping out” of the conversation, and trying to put it in a kind of context that has nothing to do with how I feel.



        

What are you talking about? I honestly don’t understand a word that you’re saying! Are you taking a new course or something? Is there some new Dr. Phil book out that I’m not aware of? It sounds like you’re reading from some kind of script.



        

Mom, now I feel confused and disoriented, because I don’t know what any of this has to do with how I feel, and how I have felt for years. [deep breath] Can you tell me how

you’re

feeling at the moment?



        

Oh, you want to know how

I’m

feeling? Well that’s nice. I am feeling that you just kind of “jumped” me with all this… psychologizing. It feels the way it has always felt with you when you get some new fad, some new idea, and just – spring it on other people without warning, with absolutely no consideration for their feelings!



        

Now I am feeling frustrated, because I asked you about your feelings, and all you did was provide negative judgments.



        

Well, you asked me how I felt, and so I told you! If you want us to have this fabulous, new, open relationship, I should be allowed to express my feelings too, right?



        

It doesn’t seem to me that when you say “I feel that you are inconsiderate,” that you are really expressing a true emotion, but rather just an angry judgment.



        

Oh, so now you are telling me what I

feel

? Is that where all this is going?



        

Mom, I am feeling increasingly frustrated and upset as a result of this conversation – I’m not saying that it’s all your fault, or that you’re making me feel anything…



        

Oh will you stop saying that! You sound like a robot! Stop trying to treat me like a child!



        

I’m not trying to treat you like a child – I’m just telling you how I’m feeling.



        

Oh, right – because it’s all about how

you

feel! How your feelings affect other people – I’m sure that hasn’t entered your mind

one little bit

!



        

Mom, I’m going to stop talking to you right now, because I’m feeling overwhelmingly sad and upset. You might be right in everything that you’re saying, that I’m inconsiderate and condescending and so on, but I can’t evaluate that objectively right now, because I am feeling so upset.

[pause]



        

Sweetie! I’m sorry that you feel judged – perhaps I was too hasty. I’m sorry if I’m reacting too strongly or inappropriately in some way. I just thought we had a good relationship, and now I find out that the whole thing has been a lie for heaven knows how long! Can you blame me for being upset? I guess it wouldn’t hurt to be more open about our feelings – I thought I was doing that, but I guess I am wrong again…



        

Now I am feeling confused, and also a little bit irritated.



        

Well if I am only making you feel bad by opening my mouth, it makes sense for us to stop talking, since I am obviously deviating from your script in some manner.



        

OK, mom.

the Principles at Work

Can you see the overall RTR approach in the above conversation?

Intimacy is not something that occurs in the abstract, or in a contained manner, or in some sort of mythological

“story time” pseudo-interaction.

Intimacy occurs in

real-time

, in the moment, when you speak honestly about your true feelings in the presence of another.

In the above conversation, you talked to your mother openly and honestly about your feelings – you recognized that she would be surprised by your

“sudden” honesty, and attempted to manage that transition.

You did not attempt to blame your mother, you did not attempt to

“frame” the conversation, you did not inflict any conclusions on her – you merely tried to be honest in the moment about how you felt while talking to her.

You did not fall into the temptation of attacking her with a

“conclusion,” but stayed vulnerable and open about what was happening for you throughout the conversation.

Just about everyone will feel confused, frustrated, disoriented and aggressive when you continue to provide them with honest feedback about how you feel while interacting with them. In a very real way, they genuinely have no idea what to do with honesty in the moment, as they speak and interact with you.

When you provide people continual feedback about your feelings – especially in relation to their actions – they will most often attempt to project their own increasing frustrations onto you by willfully misunderstanding you, misinterpreting your motives, inventing your supposed “conclusions,” accusing you of hypocrisy (“Oh, I’m not supposed to be honest about

my

feelings?”), “framing” the discussion, attacking you and so on.

The truth is that it is utter agony for most people to experience a Real-Time Relationship – particularly the first few times. They will do almost anything to avoid the radioactive pain of seeing themselves

in the moment

through your eyes.

There is nothing that you can do to manage or diminish the pain that other people feel in the presence of honesty – pain that is only increased by your unwillingness to blame them for your feelings.

When you express genuine curiosity about another person, it is agonizing for them because they have most likely

never experienced that before in their life

. The only time that most people receive “attention” is when somebody wants to hurt, control or manipulate them, or needs something from them. Thus they will inevitably react to your “attention” with fear and hostility – in order to protect their delusions about the virtue of those who raised them, and those around them.

In the above conversation, you will notice that I do not suggest trying to probe your mother’s feelings. You cannot control the degree of honesty that someone else is willing to bring to any interaction. You can certainly ask others how they feel, but if they respond with manipulative or bullying defenses you cannot reasonably call them dishonest – you can only tell them how you feel as a result of their responses.

What you also may not have noticed in the above conversation is that your mother never actually tells you that you are wrong. Your mother certainly implied that you were inconsiderate, hypocritical and so on – but she never told you that you were wrong about what you felt.

This is one of the greatest strengths of the RTR – if you avoid inflicting

“conclusions,” no one can reasonably tell you that your feelings are wrong.

This is why the RTR exposes all of the manipulations, bullying and condescension of those around you. When you tell people honestly how you feel – without inflicting story-time conclusions – it arouses all of their defenses. If you continue to stick to the truth about how you feel, you will actually see all of their defenses, parading in quick sequence. This is, of course, both horrifying and revealing.

What Next?

What happens after the above conversation?

Without a doubt, you have tossed a hand grenade into the bunker of your mother’s defenses.

Initially, her defenses will be surprised, and thus will be relatively crude, openly manipulative and obviously upsetting.

After you hang up, however, she will have a chance to sit and brood, and really embellish the mythology that she feels driven to inflict upon you in order to rescue her own self-serving illusions.

Your mother may be the kind of person who just grimly or breezily ignores discomfort, and so may say nothing about the above interaction the next time you talk.

How do you respond to that?

Why, with

honesty

. “Mom, I feel baffled and hurt, and I think it might be because…”

Alternatively, you may get a call back in half an hour – or a day or two later – after your mother has had the time to prepare a truly wonderful and moving story about what

“happened.” Most likely, she will take on a false kind of “responsibility” for what went wrong in your interaction – still, however, you will end up being blamed for upsetting the apple cart.

What do you do?

Why, you listen to your instincts, and speak the truth of course!

When your mother’s name lights up your call display again, you will undoubtedly feel a much

stronger

sinking sensation than you did before your last conversation.

If you do end up picking up the phone – which is a decision that only you can make – then you continue right where you left off, talking about your feelings in the moment.

“Mom, when I saw your name on my call display just now, I felt even

more

of a sinking sensation than I did in the past. I know that has something to do with the interaction we just had, but I’m not sure exactly how.”

And then, when your mother goes off on some mythology junket about what happened, you do not argue with her storytelling – any more than you would argue with Tolkien about whether orcs live in Isengard – but simply tell her how you

feel

about what she is saying.

Then when she starts manipulating you again, you simply continue to tell her how you feel about what she is saying.

The Endgame

Continuing this process will inevitably lead to one of two outcomes.

If, in conversation after conversation, your mother continually refuses to listen to how you feel, and endlessly manipulates you in order to manage her own anxiety – at some point, you will achieve

closure

.

In other words, you will understand in your very core the simple and tragic fact that there is no point fishing in this lake anymore, because there are no fish left in the lake.

This means that your mother is simply a mythology robot, with no capacity whatsoever to interact with you in an honest and vulnerable manner.

Fundamentally, she does not exist.

Dead Souls

In the Christian mythology, every person possesses a soul, fashioned in the image of God, which cannot be corrupted.

Thus the hope always exists that even the most evil people can achieve salvation, since they possess an immortal sliver of pure virtue within them at all times.

In the real world, nothing could be further from the truth.

The idea that our personalities possess some sort of Platonic “perfect form” that can survive every kind of abuse and corruption is a deadly myth.

If I smoke for 40 years and contract virulent lung cancer, and I am on my deathbed, what would it mean to say that somewhere within my body there still exist

“perfectly healthy lungs”?

No, the reality of the situation is that my lungs are irreversibly diseased. No

“magical perfect healthy lungs” exist anywhere in my body, or in any sense whatsoever.

In

China, when foot-binding was a common practice, the feet of little girls would be gruesomely tortured so that they ended up “curling under” themselves, the toes burrowing into the heels.

When this process was complete, there was no such thing as

“perfectly healthy feet” that floated around these women like some sort of odor. Their feet had been irreversibly mutilated and would never recover or regain their original shape.

The armies and police that are supposedly designed to

“protect” citizens always end up preying upon them. When a policeman ends up as a concentration camp guard, no “virtuous policeman” clings to his shadow on the ground – he has become evil and cannot recover.

The same is true of our personalities.

There does come a time when, if we continue to act in a corrupt or abusive manner, our defenses overwhelm and extinguish the very personality that they were originally designed to protect.

When this occurs, we no longer have any access to a healthy and happy

“true self.” It dies, as surely as our lungs die when we have lung cancer.

When we finally understand this about our mother – or whoever we are interacting with – we feel an enormous, bottomless sorrow. This sadness is called

“closure,” which is the feeling that a surgeon experiences when his patient flatlines beyond recovery.

It is the knowledge that salvation is no longer possible – that no real relationship will ever occur, that we will never be seen or empathized with, that the only thing at the other end of the phone is an empty dungeon of dead ghosts.

When this knowledge comes to us, we shudder in primeval horror – and we also involuntarily raise our eyes to the light and bless the fortune that can help us avoid such a living death.

On the Other Hand…

The possibility always exists, however, that through continually and honestly speaking the truth about our own experiences, we will be able to break through the defenses of those around us.

In this case, relationships can be rescued, intimacy can begin and disaster can be averted.

It is highly unlikely – dare I say impossible? – that this can ever be achieved with anyone in your immediate family who has ever been consistently cruel to you.